22
Sep
07

WAR IN THE QURAN


Written for Free-Minds.Org (e-mail: free@free-minds.org)

“And kill them wherever you find them…” (Quran 2:191)

The above part of a verse has been duplicated in countless sites and many publications to be used as a testimony for the ‘violence’ and cruelty that is encouraged by the words of the Quran…

In this article, we will dispel the myths surrounding warfare in the Quran and show exactly ‘what’ the GOD of Submission (Islam) teaches.

1. Fighting is only allowed against Aggression or Persecution.

“You may fight in the cause of GOD those who fight you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (2:190)

“They question you with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of GOD, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with GOD; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And he who becomes renegade and dies in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.” (2:217)

Contrary to the wishes of many who would rather picture Islam as a warmongering system, the Quran does not allow warfare except in ‘self-defense’.

“And kill them where you find them, and evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you therein. If they fight you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those who disbelieve. (2:191)

Look again at that fearful verse used at the beginning of this article…

Well, it happens to be a direct continuation from 2:190 where people are told to fight is self defense. We are allowed to fight and kill those who fight and kill us, and to evict them from where they evicted us…Sanctuary is given at the Holy Shrine, however, this is not-valid if they continue to fight at this sacred location.

2. Deterrence is the key.

“You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice. (8:60)

The Quran is a book of life, and a book of wisdom. The above verse encourages a strategy of displaying forces and making sure everyone is aware of them. This is usually the best deterrent to avoid warfare and makes those with ill intentions think twice about beginning a war or attacking out of feeling superior.

3. Military Service is Encouraged.

“Warfare has been ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. GOD knows, but you do not know.” 2:216

“O you prophet, you shall exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty of you who are steadfast, they can defeat two hundred, and a hundred of you can defeat a thousand of those who disbelieved. That is because they are people who do not understand. (8:65)

To make it clear from the beginning, Islam as a system invites people to stand ready to fight at all times…The Quran does not adapt a ‘walk-away’ attitude, but puts aggressors down from the beginning and demands its followers to be aware of such responsibilities.

4. Fighting is allowed to defend other believers.

“…As for those who believe, but do not emigrate with you, you do not owe them any support, until they do emigrate. However, if they seek your help, as brethren in faith, you shall help them, except against people with whom you have signed a peace treaty. GOD is Seer of everything you do. (8:72)

“And why should you not fight in the cause of God and the weak and oppressed among men, women, and children who say, “Our Lord rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors. And give us from You, a protector. And give us from You, a helper” (4:75).

Believers who are attacked may seek help and military action may be used in these cases. The exception is clearly if a treaty exists with the country/people who are housing them and the conditions of such treaty has not been broken (see 9:1-15 for dealing with broken treaties).

5. The concept of ‘Jihad’.

“And strive (Jahidu) in the cause of GOD as it deserves striving (Jihad)” (22:78)

Jihad is thought of in the West and even in some Islamic circles as ‘Holy War’. In-fact, the word as per its usage in GOD’s holy book means ‘To Strive’:

“But the messenger and those with him strove/jahadu with thier money and their lives..” (9″88)

“GOD has preferred those who strive/mujahideen with thier money and thier lives over those who sat…” (4:95)

Even your parents can ‘strive’ against you:

“And if they strive/jahadaak that you set-up partners with Me that which you hav no knoledge of, do not obey them..” (29:8, 31:15)

Obviously your parents are not doing a ‘holy war’ against you.

6. Equivalence in warfare is the rule.

“…if you are attacked, then you shall attack by the same equivalence. And reverence GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous” (2:194)

“And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones. (16:26)

This is the law for equivalence. If 100 of your soldiers are killed, then a maximum 100 of the enemies soldiers may be killed…You cannot kill more than has been killed with you, and if you hold-off and are not quick to seek revenge, then it is always better.

7. Desertion is not advisable.

“O you who believe, if you encounter the disbelievers who have mobilized against you, do not turn back and flee. Anyone who turns back on that day, except to carry out a battle plan, or to join his group, has incurred wrath from GOD, and his abode is Hell; what a miserable destiny! (8:15-16)

Although there is no law against desertion from the battle field, those who believe in GOD would not be very smart to do so as the consequences are related to the after-life.

8. Prisoners of War.

“… Some of them you killed, and some you took captive. (33:26)

“O you prophet, tell the prisoners of war in your hands, “If GOD knew of anything good in your hearts, He would have given you better than anything you have lost, and would have forgiven you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.” (8:70)

In the laws of GOD, prisoners can be taken during warfare and held until such time as there release is possible. Prisoners are neither to be killed nor tortured…these are not practices which have any legitimacy.

9. Spoils of War.

“They consult you about the spoils of war. Say, “The spoils of war belong to GOD and the messenger.” You shall observe GOD, exhort one another to be righteous, and obey GOD and His messenger, if you are believers. (8:1)

“He made you inherit their land, their homes, their money, and lands you had never stepped on. GOD is in full control of all things. (33:27)

Spoils of war belong to the state to be distributed as per the Quranic requirements (orphans, needy. etc..). The land and goods of enemies is confiscated in these battles.

10. Warfare is stopped if the other party ceases.

“If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.” (2:192)

“If they seek peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. (8:61)

This is the GOD of Submission…A GOD who only allows violence when it is carried out against a person, and is quick to call for peace once the violence is ended.

There can be no justification for war and killing to continue simply because it was started by means of aggression…

11. Payment of Compensation (Jizya).

“You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the system of truth-among those who received the scripture-until they pay the penalty, willingly or unwillingly.” (9:29)

Sura 9 deals with the breaking of treaties and warfare. The penalty for those who have have broken the law and have fought against the believers is to pay ‘compensation’ for their action.

Reconciliation of Believers.

“If two groups of believers fought with each other, you shall reconcile them. If one group aggresses against the other, you shall fight the aggressing group until they submit to GOD’s command. Once they submit, you shall reconcile the two groups equitably. You shall maintain justice; GOD loves those who are just.” (49:9)

Although this does not deal with warfare directly, it lays the ground for what to do when two groups of believers fight.

Final Reminder.

“…anyone who kills any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he killed all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people…” (5:32)

 

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/war.htm 


43 Responses to “WAR IN THE QURAN”


  1. September 22, 2007 at 9:09 am

    Thank you making clear the facts about jihad, Samy.

    I think, in this age, the most emerged JIHAD for Muslims is supposed to be first against themselves, against their lack of knowledge and education, against their poverty and inability of to control their own lands and sources, against their own governments, against their blindness and acute denial towards universal values which are stated in the Qur’an, etc.

  2. September 22, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    “…anyone who kills any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he killed all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people…” (5:32)

    UGH! UGH!

    And where is the rest of this verse

    ME SMELL DOUBLE SPEACH

  3. September 22, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

    It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His apostle, and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they are being slain in great numbers, or crucified in great numbers, or have, in result of their perverseness, their hands and feet cut off in great numbers, or are being [entirely] banished from [the face of] the earth: such is their ignominy in this world. But in the life to come [yet more] awesome suffering awaits them –5:33

    إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ تَابُواْ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَقْدِرُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

    save for such [of them] as repent ere you [O believers] become more powerful than they: for you must know that God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.5:34

    its the punishment for those who make war on God and His apostle (at his time), and endeavor to spread corruption on earth,
    except those who repent before you overpower them.

    any political system of any country will allow it’s army to take the same actions towards it’s enemy under war conditions .

  4. September 23, 2007 at 2:15 am

    This is a well constructed and informative article. Thank you. I am going to use this is my offline life as well. I have been thinking about justice issues recently and I wonder there is a case for firstly, ensuring safety of a community; secondly bringing person(s) who have harmed to justice: thirdly recompensing loss. However it seems to me that justice is defined by the (state’s) ability to judge that a person(s) have reformed from their harmful behaviour, or are likely to re-harm. For in the latter case, the first criteria applies. The third criteria applies as a relation of the State and the victims, regardless of the State’s ability to bring perpetrators to Justice. Somehow, I think if we could mobilise thinking around Justice, rather than revenge or the pre-emptive fear, on which many State’s and a lot of people are basing their responses.

  5. September 23, 2007 at 5:05 am

    Thank you

    Now can you explain, what is to “spread corruption on earth”

  6. September 23, 2007 at 5:54 am

    To violate the others rights, in life, in wealth, in honor or in security,

    One should be punished according to his crime against the individuals, or according to his deeds, not his belief.

    The society has the right to judge you if you violate its peace and security. The peace and the security of the society mean the peace and security of all his members. But the society or any human authority has no right to judge any one in the realm of belief and thoughts. This belongs to the One God alone in the day of resurrection.

    The Islamic peaceful state has the right to defend itself when another state attacks it; it has the right to retaliate equivalently, but not to start fight against the others. God says

    ’You shall fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, for God does not love the aggressors’ [2:190}

    If they attack you, you may attack them to inflict an equivalent retribution.’[2:194]

    To maintain peace in front of the enemy, the Islamic peaceful State should have a strong army. Once it has such a strong army, the Aggressor State will refrain from attacking the peaceful strong Islamic State.

    If the enemy asks for peace, the Islamic state should respond to the peace, trusting in God alone. [8:60-62] this means the strong army here is to keep peace, and to prevent the bloodshed of the human beings, including those of the aggressor state itself.

    thank you

  7. September 23, 2007 at 11:21 am

    Thank you once again

    I am sorry, but I asked where is the rest of verse (5.32) that you have missed out

    Or are you mixing the koran with the jewish The Jewish Mishna teaches that :

    whoever destroys one life is regarded by the Torah as if he has destroyed a whole world; and whoever saves one life, is regarded as if he has saved a whole world.

    Now according to the Koran, Muhammad did not deny that Allah had said this but explained that it did not apply to killing non-Jewish infidels.

    Muhammad said that Allah said: (Koran 5.32)

    32. That is why We decreed for the children of Israel that whosoever kills a human being, except (as punishment) for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, it shall be like killing all humanity; and whosoever saves a life, saves the entire human race. Our apostles brought clear proofs to them; but even after that most of them committed excesses in the land.

    You like wise the Muslims quote only part 5.32 out of context to show that Islam is a benevolent religion.

    Taking this verse out of context in this way is extremely deceptive since the only reason that verse is in the Koran is to justify killing and maiming Jewish infidels.

    Now that we have the full verse, it throws a diffeent light onto what is meant as “corruption in the land

    So what is corruption in the land in the islamic context

  8. September 23, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    I asked where is the rest of this verse (5:32)

    Yet you did not give any explaination as to why you left ut most of the verse, so here it is below

    [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

    Kind of changes things

    I asked you also, what is to “spread corruption on earth”

    Sorry but I should have aked you what “spread corruption in the land in islamic context

  9. September 23, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    5:32. For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

    5:32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

    I see no changes, could you explain what your concern is about the rest of the ayath?

    “Spreading corruption on earth”, I am trying to make brain storming in here, there is supposed to be a continued(1) wrongful(2) act(3) with full intention(4) to make the thing(5) in wrong way without any sense of responsibility(6) how his/her act harms(7) others, I assume.

    Would you like to add anything?

    Peace,

  10. September 23, 2007 at 2:12 pm

    Taking this verse out of context in this way is extremely deceptive.

    i agree and i think i have illustrated my view on the bigger picture, and im not hiding any verses

    https://pressthat.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/war-in-the-quran/#comment-914

    it was already there, it seems that he didn’t want to read

  11. September 24, 2007 at 12:07 am

    The story of the two sons of Adam

    وَاتْلُ عَلَيْهِمْ نَبَأَ ابْنَيْ آدَمَ بِالْحَقِّ إِذْ قَرَّبَا قُرْبَانًا فَتُقُبِّلَ مِن أَحَدِهِمَا وَلَمْ يُتَقَبَّلْ مِنَ الآخَرِ قَالَ لَأَقْتُلَنَّكَ قَالَ إِنَّمَا يَتَقَبَّلُ اللّهُ مِنَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

    And recite to them the news of Adam’s two sons in truth. They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said: “I will kill you!”; he said: “God only accepts from the righteous.” 5:27

    لَئِن بَسَطتَ إِلَيَّ يَدَكَ لِتَقْتُلَنِي مَا أَنَاْ بِبَاسِطٍ يَدِيَ إِلَيْكَ لَأَقْتُلَكَ إِنِّي أَخَافُ اللّهَ رَبَّ الْعَالَمِينَ

    “If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, the Lord of the worlds.”5:28

    إِنِّي أُرِيدُ أَن تَبُوءَ بِإِثْمِي وَإِثْمِكَ فَتَكُونَ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّارِ وَذَلِكَ جَزَاء الظَّالِمِينَ

    “I want you to have both my sin as well as your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the reward of the wicked.”5:29

    فَطَوَّعَتْ لَهُ نَفْسُهُ قَتْلَ أَخِيهِ فَقَتَلَهُ فَأَصْبَحَ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

    So he found it in himself to kill his brother; so he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.5:30

    فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ غُرَابًا يَبْحَثُ فِي الأَرْضِ لِيُرِيَهُ كَيْفَ يُوَارِي سَوْءةَ أَخِيهِ قَالَ يَا وَيْلَتَا أَعَجَزْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِثْلَ هَـذَا الْغُرَابِ فَأُوَارِيَ سَوْءةَ أَخِي فَأَصْبَحَ مِنَ النَّادِمِينَ

    So God sent forth a raven to scratch the land and show him how to deal with the body of his brother. He said: “O my, am I not able to be like this raven and deal with the body of my brother!” So he became of those who regretted.5:31

    مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاء تْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُون

    It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel: “Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.” Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.5:32

    إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

    The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.5:33

    إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ تَابُواْ مِن قَبْلِ أَن تَقْدِرُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيم

    Except for those who repent before you overpower them, then know that God is Forgiving, Merciful.5:34

    God told the Children of Israel not to kill a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land.
    many of them (not all) are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.

    The recompense of those who

    1-fight God and His messenger (War), and
    2-seek to make corruption in the land (not the Jews)

    is that they will be

    1-killed or
    2-crucified or
    3-that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or
    4-that they be banished from the land

    Except for those who repent before you overpower them.

  12. September 24, 2007 at 3:37 am

    Your Translation of 5.32 is wrong

    In fact it is not from the Koran but from, The Message which is A

    Modern Literal Translation of the Quran

    The Message: God’s Revelation to Humanity (Paperback)

    ProgressiveMuslims.Org

    Please what happened to my previous post.

    Lying and deceit does not help to win respect

  13. September 24, 2007 at 3:45 am

    Verses 27-34 retell the story of Cain and Abel, culminating in one of the most oft-quoted verses of the Qur’an, the one that mosles refer to most frequently:

    v. 32, which contains the admonition that some who kills a human being, “unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”

    Sa‘id bin Jubayr explains 5:32 this way: “He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people.”

    Never mentioned by the moslems or any of the others who quote this verse as if it condemns Islamic jihadist violence are several important facts:

    it comes within the context of a warning to the Jews, and is not presented as a universal principle; it contains the important exception “unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land,”

    and it is followed by v. 33, which specifies the punishment for that mischief: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

    Thus this passage is explaining what must be done with Jews who reject Muhammad, not dictating lofty moral principles.

    Ibn Warraq sums it up: “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!”

    http://hotair.com/archives/2007/09/16/blogging-the-quran
    So Stefan

    If moslems are demanding respect then telling the truth can go a long way in helping.

  14. September 24, 2007 at 4:08 am

    first of all, i speak arabic and i find most translations inaccurate because they are built up to support hadith .

    i find this translation the most accurate, and the closest to the original arabic text.

    the discussion is about the war in the quran so we have to analyze the arabic text and it’s meanings .

    Thus this passage is explaining what must be done with Jews who reject Muhammad, not dictating lofty moral principles.

    this is not true ( يُحَارِبُونَ) is not reject .

    إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُون

    many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.

    (كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم) = many of them (not all)

    إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَادًاٌ

    The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land,

    ( يُحَارِبُونَ) is fighting (in war), taken from ( حَرِبَُ) = war.

    its not jews .

    only the jews or anyone (even muslim) who fights God and His messenger (War), and
    seeks to make corruption in the land (not the Jews) without repenting (and not converting). (َ الَّذِينَ تَابُوا) = those who repent, and not those who accept Mohamed,Quran or Islam.

    those who repent from their aggression or corruption in the lands are forgiven.

    and how will you explain the Golden age of the Jewish culture in the Iberian Peninsula during the Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_the_Iberian_Peninsula

    if what you are saying is correct then how did they survive without being killed ?

  15. September 24, 2007 at 4:24 am

    Please what happened to my previous post.

    please send back any missing posts, if its not there then probably it was gone by mistake.
    i did not delete anything.

    peace

  16. September 24, 2007 at 5:14 am

    You are wrong Shiva.

    You cannot expect from us to rely on sayings of a Muslim enemy of the Islam and a non-Muslim enemy of the Islam, right?

    This is megalomany: “He who allows himself to shed the blood of a Muslim, is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one Muslim, is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people.”

    And this is open hostility towards Muslims: “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!”

    None of the interpretation of 5:32 either literally or figuratively gives those ‘ill’ statements. In fact, since Muslims are also bind by what Jews or Christians are told, and 5:32 is especially repeating what they were told about the specific subject which is ‘murder’ same ayath is going to be applied on those Muslims as well: If a Muslim who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if that Muslim/or Muslims has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.” Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of those Muslims are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.

    In sum, 5:32 is in fact an open warning to Muslims in the Qur’an.

    May Allah help you to understand well.

    FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

    Peace,

  17. September 24, 2007 at 6:59 am

    Stephan

    first of all, i speak arabic and i find most translations inaccurate because they are built up to support hadith .

    the discussion is about the war in the quran so we have to analyze the arabic text and it’s meanings .

    So you can speak arabic,so what

    Arabic–speaking peoples, reading the Koran is far from being a straightforward matter. The Koran is putatively written in what we call Classical Arabic, but modern Arab populations, leaving aside the problem of illiteracy in Arab countries, do not speak, read, or write, let alone think in Classical Arabic.

    So the style of the Koran is difficult, totally unlike the prose of today, and the Koran would be largely incomprehensible without glossaries, indeed entire commentaries.

    In conclusion, even the most educated of Arabs will need some sort of a translation if he or she wished to make sense of that most gnomic, elusive and allusive of holy scriptures,the Koran.

    However, the majority of Muslims are not Arabs or Arabic speaking peoples. The non-Arabic speaking nations of Indonesia with a population of 197 million, Pakistan with 133 million, Iran with 62 million, Turkey with 62 million, India with a Muslim population of about 95 million, out- number by far the total number of native Arabic speakers in about thirty countries in the world estimated as 150 million.

    In other words, the majority of Muslims have to read the Koran in translation in order to understand it.

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/002953.html

    So for the very large majority of english speaking muslims they use the translations by by moslem translators:- Marmaduke Pickthall, M. H. Shakir, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al Hilali, Maulana Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Asad, and Ahmed Raza Khan.

    Your version is taken from, THE MESSAGE that is authored Proggressive Muslims Org which they also published

    The MESSAGE is just another version of Rashad Khalifa’s The Qur’an: The Final Scripture.

    And we know what happened to Rashad Khalifa, he caused corruption in the land, in the context Islam and of verse 5.32, and was executed according to verse 5.33

    There is enough evidence that anything that muslims percieve as an insult to Islam is an act of war.

    Danish/Swedish Cartoons

    Alleged desecration of the koran

    Sir Salman Rushdie affair

    Beauty Contests

  18. September 24, 2007 at 8:42 am

    If a Muslim who kills a person who has not committed murder,

    No matter how I look at this it does not make any sense, unless killing a Jew or a non-believer is not murder, there-fore a muslim is excused of the punishments mentioned in V 5.33

    In sum, 5:32 is in fact an open warning to Muslims in the Qur’an.

    If that is the case then why does the verse begin with On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel and not We ordained for the believers.

    Corruption in the land, or corruption/mischief on earth, is a huge category of offenses, violent or non-violent, that significantly go against Islam.

    These crimes vary widely, including, for a few examples, criticizing or calling for changes in Islamic traditions; practicing “sorcery”; engaging in “charlatanism”; sex between a non-Moslem man and a moslem woman; highway robbery; destruction of buildings; and terrorism against moslems, and making cartoons of mohammed..

    You are wrong Shiva.

    You cannot expect from us to rely on sayings of a Muslim enemy of the Islam and a non-Muslim enemy of the Islam, right?

    If I am wrong why did you get so upset at the mention of Sa‘id bin Jubayr

    Is it because he was a Shia Moslem, who was beheaded or spreading corruption in the land

    Now there,s a lovely war for you Shias and Sunni.1300 years a still going strong..

    Now before we start debating Jews in Spain or Turkey, shall we debate the Jews that where in the Arabian Penninsular, shall we start the debate with Ibn Ishaq,s description the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

    “ Then they surrendered, and the mohammed confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar.

    Then the mohammed went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches.

    Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900.

    As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, ‘Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return?

    By Allah it is death!’ This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope.

    When he saw the apostle he said, ‘By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.’ Then he went to the men and said, ‘God’s command is right.

    A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.’

    Then he sat down and his head was struck off

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Jews/BQurayza/banu3.html

    http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/01/al-maidah5.html

  19. September 24, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    In conclusion, even the most educated of Arabs will need some sort of a translation if he or she wished to make sense of that most gnomic, elusive and allusive of holy scriptures,the Koran.

    what about the non-english speakers ?

    you are saying nonsense …

    we study the quran in school in arabic .

    the quran wanted the jews to be more peaceful,

    Leviticus 20
    Punishments for Sin

    1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives [a] any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.

    6 ” ‘I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

    7 ” ‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [b]

    9 ” ‘If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

    10 ” ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

    11 ” ‘If a man sleeps with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    12 ” ‘If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

    13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    14 ” ‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

    15 ” ‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

    16 ” ‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    17 ” ‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

    18 ” ‘If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.

    19 ” ‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

    20 ” ‘If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

    21 ” ‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

    22 ” ‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

    25 ” ‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

    27 ” ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ “

    i’m not saying that muslims are better than jews or christians but you cannot put all the negatives recorded in the history of the muslims to explain that what in the quran is dangerous and aggressive.

    “Hitler and Mussolini” can we say, Christians are killers and terrorists ?

    i dont believe so but some muslims do, exactly like what you are doing.

  20. 21 awake
    September 24, 2007 at 3:00 pm

    If the Qur’an is intended to only be properly understandable in Arabic, why do Muslims ranslate it into English?

  21. September 24, 2007 at 3:10 pm

    for the non-arabic speakers but every translator has a different choice of words that might be wrong sometimes in certain words.

    the bible is in hebrew and greek, why is it translated to english ?

    therefore we must look at the original to know the real meanings

  22. September 24, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    in a case such as the above, we can see different translations,

    how will you know if im mistranslating ?

    you have to see the original

  23. September 24, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    What about the non-english speakers

    No problem since there have been translations of the Koran into, for instance, Persian since the tenth or eleventh century, and there are translations into Turkish and Urdu.

    A translation from Latin into Hebrew was made in the seventeenth century by Jacob b. Israel ha Levi, Rabbi of Zante (died 1634). In modern times a translation was made into Hebrew by Heripann Reckendorf and printed at Leipzig, in 1857.

    the quran wanted the jews to be more peaceful,

    Not only the Jews but anbody else who did not conform to Allahs/Mohammeds wishes

    I fail to see what Leviticus 20, Punishments for Sin has to do with WAR IN THE QURAN

  24. September 24, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    I fail to see what Leviticus 20, Punishments for Sin has to do with WAR IN THE QURAN

    it has nothing to do with war in the quran

    it shows that

    If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death
    If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal
    etc.

    the death penalty is their as a punishment without

    1-being involved in murder
    2-corruption in the land which violates the others rights to live a peaceful life

    killing anyone without being involved in murder or corruption is corruption.

    this is what the quran is talking about in verse 5:32

    إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُون

    many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth.

  25. September 24, 2007 at 3:39 pm

    No problem since there have been translations of the Koran into, for instance, Persian since the tenth or eleventh century, and there are translations into Turkish and Urdu.

    A translation from Latin into Hebrew was made in the seventeenth century by Jacob b. Israel ha Levi, Rabbi of Zante (died 1634). In modern times a translation was made into Hebrew by Heripann Reckendorf and printed at Leipzig, in 1857.

    A translation from arabic to any language is made for the non-arabic speakers of that language .

    Arabs use the original arabic and not the translation as you have just said two comments ago

  26. September 24, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    Arabs use the original arabic and not the translation as you have just said two comments ago

    Excuse me, but arabs are not using the original arab, they are using modern interpretations.

    Interesting to know which interpretation you use.

  27. September 24, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    the arabic words are the same, our understanding is not

  28. September 24, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    we use the arabic quran not modern interpretations.

    you cannot assume that all arabs are the same and using the same thing.

    i use my modern brain like any interpreter

  29. 30 awake
    September 24, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    So, if the Qur’an is read by more non-Arabic speaking people than Arabic ones, and there are many interpretations within the Arabic translations and English ones as well, who is the defining authority on the interpretation?

    This is supposedly God’s word after all, isn’t it?

  30. September 24, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

    none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they say: “We believe in it, all is from our Lord.” And none will remember except the people of understanding.3:7

    you have to study it by yourself to understand

  31. 32 awake
    September 24, 2007 at 7:08 pm

    It sounds a bit ambiguous to me then. If no one truly can interpret and understand it’s meaning except God, then it appears that each own’s interpretation is valid and justifiable.

    If that is true, how can some make the claim that the jihadists are misinterpreting the Qur’an and “true” Islam itself?

  32. September 24, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    God and those who are well founded in knowledge and believing that it is all from God.

    our knowledge is different from the knowledge of the people in the past.

  33. September 24, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    we use the arabic quran not modern interpretations.

    Modern Arabic or Ancient Arabic

    So now you are trying to say that arabs use the ancient versions, next you will be teling us that all arabs also use the same un altered koran

    What ever! it still does not alter the fact that the article above is using only a part of verse 5.32, which is very misleading.

    And then you use Rashad Khalifa’s The Qur’an: The Final Scripture. a quote, which is from

    http://19.org/km/RK/5

    Very ironic that he was murdered for not understanding 5:32-33

    Now I have established you are using Rashad Khalifa’s Qur’an makes things more clear, that the above article is very deceptive.

    The article starts with 2:191

    “You may fight in the cause of GOD those who fight you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.(Rashad Khalifa)

    Kalifa has changed transgress to aggress thus changing the context of the verse

    Transgress “break a law”; “break a promise” commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law

    Aggress attack: take the initiative and go on the offensive

    “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.”

    http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.
    asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=2&nAya=190&t=eng

    So just changing the text slightly things look very different indeed

    Here we go again

    8:60
    “You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice. (Rashad Khalifa)

    See the difference

    Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the Cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

    Now this is interesting

    Above Sukran Says:

    September 24th, 2007 at 5:14 am

    You are wrong Shiva.

    You cannot expect from us to rely on sayings of a Muslim enemy of the Islam and a non-Muslim enemy of the Islam, right?”

    Now the above article is based on Rashad Khalifa,s Quoran

    So how can you go rely on sayings of a Muslim enemy of the Islam

    Rashad Khalifa (November 19, 1935 – January 31, 1990) was an Egyptian biochemist who became a US citizen and took residence in Tucson, Arizona. Khalifa was stabbed to death on January 31st, 1990.

    He is a false Messenger, an apostate, the Anti-Christ and infidel as regarded by the entire Islamic world

    His writings were banned in many Muslim countries. Muslim scholars likened his numerology to Jewish and Christian gematria. The Muslim Digest, published in South Africa, strongly attacked Khalifa as a sinister heretic.

    He removed two verses from the Qur’an, the last two of the ninth chapter in order to get his calculations to work. He claimed that they were added nineteen years after the death of Muhammad. Some have claimed that the removal of these verses is in contradiction to the Qur’an itself, including the following verse:

    [15:9] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

  34. September 24, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    This is a more reliable source than Rashad Khalifa,s Quoran

    Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
    Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSora=2&nAya=190&nSeg=1&l=eng&t=eng

  35. 36 awake
    September 24, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    Shiva,

    Yes, Khalifa’s version of the Qur’an cannot be considered mainstream in any way, shape or form. His revelation of the last two verses in the ninth sura was required in an attempt to prove the Qur’an’s divinity by unignorable mathematical correlations.

  36. September 24, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    وَلاَ تَعْتَدُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبِّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ

    “but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. (2:190)

    (تَعْتَدُوا) and (ِالْمُعْتَدِي) have the same root for me the correct meaning is assault.

    i don’t really care about what you have just said about different translations and rashad khalifa and the Islamic world.

    وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن قُوَّةٍ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدْوَّ اللّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تُظْلَمُون

    And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instill fear with it towards God’s enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.8:60

    وَإِن جَنَحُواْ لِلسَّلْمِ فَاجْنَحْ لَهَا وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

    And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.8:61

    The word (تُرْهِبُونَ) = to cause fear , there is no terror in the hearts.

    again this verse is only under war conditions and not for individuals attack civilians as enemies .

    And rashad khalifa’is not an enemy of islam even if he was a false messenger, the ones who killed him are enemies of islam.

  37. September 25, 2007 at 1:16 am

    <“If a Muslim who kills a person who has not committed murder,”

    <No matter how I look at this it does not make any sense, unless killing a Jew or a non-<believer is not murder, there-fore a muslim is excused of the punishments mentioned in V 5.33

    <“In sum, 5:32 is in fact an open warning to Muslims in the Qur’an.”

    <If that is the case then why does the verse begin with On that account: We ordained for the

    Qur’an uses various or methods to teach, remind, and warn its reader, for example calling attention indirectly by recalling what had been said to other people of the Book. In this verse Allah prefers to warn believers by using an indirect method. If we agree today’s Muslims are doing something wrong as the other people of the Book, than I see no reason why you refuse to see that the same ayath is a reminder today’s Muslims who murder thousands of innocent people- who has not committed murder or has not spread mischief in the land- in the name of Islam.

    If you believe today’s Muslims are nothing other than PERFECT Qur’an followers, than you are right, 5:32 cannot be for the Muslims, since they are perfect submitters!

    Same teaching method is used explicitly in the Bible, however, most of the Christians think as same as you think and they do not take those verses in the Bible which if they are calling Corinthians’ or Thessalonians’ or Ephesians’ attention, at the same time as a reminder for themselves. Hope I could explain well what I think in here.

    <Corruption in the land, or corruption/mischief on earth, is a huge category of offenses,

    I agree.

    <These crimes vary widely, including, for a few examples, criticizing or calling for changes in <Islamic traditions; practicing “sorcery”; engaging in “charlatanism”; sex between a non-Moslem <man and a moslem woman; highway robbery; destruction of buildings; and terrorism against

    Are we discussing what Qur’an says, or religious sects or/and transgrassors say?

    I do not belong any sect, and I am confident to say that I admit and accept any righteous side of any religious sect.

    It would make no difference whether he was Sunni, or Shia or Jewish or Christian, what he states in his sentence is an attempt to spread hostility among the people of the Book and Muslims. It is unacceptable. It is another example of wrongful interpretation of Qur’an. Unfortunately, even Allah’s words are enough open and clear people are so BRAVE to make them vague.

    Shias and Sunnis have never fought with each other like occured in other religions, such as St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre(1572).

    Would you like to illustrate other thousands of “Bloodiest Massacres of the History of the World” which were nothing to do with Muslims?

    You are wasting your time and your precious human side by trying to spread hostility against Muslims.

    Peace,

  38. September 25, 2007 at 3:38 am

    Are we discussing what Qur’an says, or religious sects or/and transgrassors say?

    Now this is a good question,

    Before we can even discuss what the koran says, it should be established what koran is being discussed.

    And the koran from which the above verses are taken from, is rejected through out the islamic world.

    Even the people who follow Kalifa do not call themselves moslems, but submitters.

    So the question is are we discussing the Koran, or a corrupted koran

  39. October 20, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    Amazing!

    I find you in the strangest places, Shiva!

  40. November 11, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    “So the question is are we discussing the Koran, or a corrupted koran”

    Qur’an is not corrupted, but some of Muhammad’s sayings were.

    Please do not miss the point:

    Qur’an is not one of Muhammad’s sayings.


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